Ivomec for dogs

[Barnes]

I don't have herding dogs but I have used Heart Guard on my dogs for years. The active med in Heart Guard is Ivomec so I have switched to the Ivomec injectable, my vet knows this and approves. I am spending so much on Frontline already so I am happy to be saving the money I was spending on the Heart Guard! I always have Ivomec injectable because of the goats.

[Char8806]

I just recently joined this site while searching for information on Ivermectin and Collies.  Let me tell you about what I have learned today.  About 2 months ago, I rescued a beautiful 95 pound sable rough cut (I learned the sable and rough cut thing today too). A couple weeks later, he went to my vet for his shots, tests and the normal stuff.  He tested positive for heart worms.  After preliminary tests, they determined he was a class 2 (not the most severe case) and he would require the 3 day treatment followed by a month of rest and then return for a 1 day treatment and we would be done.  After 3 days in the hospital and a month of resting, we returned for the 1 day treatment right on schedule.  That was yesterday morning.  Yesterday afternoon my beautiful, vibrant companion was reduced to a seizing, drooling, vomiting,  pile of fur who could not even hold his own head up crying in constant pain.  He does not recognize me, if he is even able to see anything at all.  Today when I went to see him, they told he is doing better, he has quit seizing but now has diarrhea.  He doesn't look any better to me, now he isn't moving at all.  He still does not who I am and is practically comatose.  If you really want to learn, all you really have to do is type "Ivermectin" in the search engine (I used MSN) and the first 10 sites it pulls up is all against Ivermectin and collies.  And you can include the American Board of Veterinary Toxicology.  Maybe your vet missed that day of class.  I will regret for the rest of my life that I relied on my vet and did not research this myself.  Meanwhile, I will try to comfort my children, keep hope and continue to pray for what just yesterday was a beautiful, vibrant gentle giant of a dog.

[GoatTalker]

This problem/syndrome seems to be quite common in Collies, and by the way your lovely boy is a rough (the long haired variety of Collie, as opposed to a smooth/short haired.) I am so sorry you are going through all of this, did your vet tell you why he is reacting this way? What did they give him? It could have been Ivomec, or he could have had a more severe case of heart worm. None of the vets that told me it was safe would ever, ever, ever worm a heart worm positive animal with Ivomec. It is however what they recommended for OUR dogs (who are not Collies) as a preventative.

[Char8806]

They gave him Ivermectin (oral dose) to kill the baby heart worms (the last series of treatment)  And it is a suitable treatment for most dogs, however it is strongly discouraged with herding dogs such as collies.  It is too risky and I feel like my vet should have known this.  You are right, it is a suitable preventative for other dogs.  They will not tell me how much they gave him.  I just got off the phone with the Dr and there are really no changes.  I am armed with knowledge at this point and the fight is not over, Coopers or mine.  Thanks.

[GoatTalker]

Prayers coming your way for Cooper, and your family.

[Jean]

Oh, poor Cooper!!! I hope he beats this thing and is well and happy in no time!!!!!!!!!

[Char8806]

I would like to thank you all for the hope and prayers.  They are much appreciated.  Cooper is making "micro improvements" they tell me.  When they turned him last time, he made a small attempt to lift his head.  Keep those prayers coming!!

Char
Bartlett, TN
clesslie@midsouth.rr.com

[Char8806]

Oh, and by the way Ivomec IS Ivermectin.  So is Heartgaurd30 and Acarexx.  Here are some other drugs that can cause problems from Washington State University Vet Clinic.Problem Drugs:

There are many different types of drugs that have been reported to cause problems in Collies, ranging from over-the-counter antidiarrheal agents like Imodium® to antiparasitic and chemotherapy agents. It is likely this list will grow to include more drugs as our research progresses.

Drugs that have been documented, or are strongly suspected to cause problems in dogs with the  mdr1 mutation:

Ivermectin (antiparasitic agent)
Loperamide (Imodium®; over-the-counter antidiarrheal agent)
Doxorubicin (anticancer agent)
Vincristine (anticancer agent)
Vinblastine (anticancer agent)
Cyclosporin (immunosuppressive agent)
Digoxin (heart drug)
Acepromazine (tranquilizer)
Butorphanol (pain control)

Potential Problem Drugs

The following drugs may potentially cause problems when given to dogs that have the mutation. Biochemical studies have shown that this gene has the potential to act on over 50 different drugs.

Ondansetron
Domperidone
Paclitaxel
Mitoxantrone
Etoposide
Rifampicin
Quinidine
Morphine

Char
Bartlett, TN

[Jamie]

Oh poor boy and poor Char!  I'm so sorry to hear this and hope he makes a full recovery.

[GoatTalker]

Excellent news Char, we will keep praying for Cooper.

It is strange what has happened to Collies over the years. I grew up in a family that raised and showed Collies, my parents kennel name was Spartan Collies, and I went on to have Silver Hills Collies, until about 23 years ago, when we got out of dogs. We never had any heart problems so in our dogs, so who knows if the heart drugs, or even the cancer drugs you list would have bothered them, but Ace, I have used Ace several times, and never had an issue. I had a friend with a cancer Collie we used to transport from Nevada to California for treatments at UC Davis, and he never had any reactions to the drugs they were giving him. The breed just really seems to have taken a dive.

[sam]

I think that it is a benefit vs potential cost issue/question.  If there is no other drug on the market, but the one that could possibly be dangerous, that can heal your dog and it will die without the treatment then I would probably give it a go.  If it is a procedure that could be done without a drug that was indicated to cause issues in the breed, then I would go a different route.  Like simple worming.  Why risk it if it is not absolutely necessary and there are other choices?  Just my thoughts.

Our prayers are with Cooper. We have had rescues go through heartworm treatment and it is horrid.  Let alone compounded with a reaction.  God Bless you.

[Char8806]

Okay, I just got back from the hospital visiting Cooper, they tell me (I wish I could see it with my own eyes but...) he now attempts to keep his front torso (front legs and chest) upright when they turn him.  It only lasts for a few seconds, but its an improvement.  When I pet him and talk to him his eyes are closed now (he's sleeping VERY soundly) I can see his eyelids flutter, like his eyes are actually moving under them.  And  I know I sound all so full of myself, but I am still researching and found this on the American Heartworm Society.  I find it interesting..... this is for the removal of the larvae (baby) heartworms.  and proves THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO IVERMECTIN.

Elimination of Microfilariae

The most effective drugs for this purpose are the macrocyclic lactone (ML) anthelmintics, i.e.,milbemycin oxime (Interceptor®, Sentinel, Novartis), selamectin (Revolution®, Pfizer) , moxidectin Proheart® 6 and high doses of ivermectin(Heartgard®, Heartgard Plus®, Merial, IverhartTM Plus, Virbac. These drugs are the active ingredients in the commonly used heartworm preventives. Although their usage as microfilaricides has not been approved by the FDA, they are widely used as such because there are no approved microfilaricidal drugs currently available. It is recommended that microfilariae positive dogs being treated with these drugs be hospitalized for at least eight hours following treatment for observation of possible adverse reactions resulting from rapid death of the microfilariae.

Circulating microfilariae usually can be eliminated within a few weeks by the administration of the ML-type drugs mentioned above. Today however, the most widely used microfilaricidal treatment is to simply administer ML preventives as usual, and the microfilariae will be cleared slowly over a period of about six to nine months.

This tells me that there were other choices for this stage of the heartworm treatment, why the vet took the most risky route with Cooper is beyond me.  Vets do have a choice when it comes to using Ivermectin on Collies and their sister breeds that DO NOT have these potently fatal side effects.
A friend of mine sent me to this Vet when we found out Cooper had heartworms, she feels so bad and refuses to take her animals back there.  Her Vet she had for years retired and this guy took his place.  Maybe ya all better start praying for the Vet too.  

Anyway... keep those prayers coming, they seem to be helping and THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THE WORDS OF SUPPORT & KINDNESS.

[Char8806]

He's actually awake.  He responds to his name, his eyes follow you, he will attempt to get up for a few seconds.  They are giving him water and liquid diet in a syringe in small amounts and he is lapping it up.  They are starting physical therapy because his legs have swollen some.  And to top all this off, the vet admitted he really messed up and that he knows that Collies can not have Ivermectin.  The prayers are much appreciated.
Thanks again
Char

[Barnes]

That is great news! I hope the progress continues!

[GoatTalker]

Awesome news!!! Prayers continue.

[bcrescue]

ARGH!!!!!! I just wrote a a very good blurb on this ivermectin heartworm thing - and when i tried to look up a word in spell check - it knocked me completely off!!!!!! Grrr
It took me so long to write it!
Anyway, I was trying to explain that treating dog for heartworm is a very dangerous procedure and vet's explain all of that to you up front. The real anger and frustration should go back to the previous owners of Cooper who were irresponsible and allowed him to contract them in the first place. But one should ALWAYS know that when you go into the clinic for that kind of a procedure there's a chance for serious side effects.
There's dangers with anything. We could have a life threatening event giving antibiotics for instance, or eating a peanut.
The main goal i think should be that we are careful and very well educated. For preventative care, if we are Constantin looking for updates and read all we can find. i think that we can responsibly use what's out there with 99.99% safety.

It's also very important and helpful having this board to discuss things and "get it all out" and also gain new knowledge.
Well, darn, I've forgotten so much, and I've taking my eve. meds - so i hope i got a little across here before i conk out for the night!
Nite Everyone
Hope Cooper gets better.
LB

[Char8806]

The vet explained nothing.  I was told that without the treatment he would die and that was ALL.  He explained that he was a class 2 and would only require a 3 day stay for the first treatment and a month later, a one day treatment.  And my whole point is the vet SHOULD have known that collies CAN NOT have Ivermectin, and with his admission I'd say he did.  This was a WANDERING dog.  There are no previous owners to blame.

What it boils down to, as the vet said himself, He accepts full responsibility, he knew collies can not have ivermectin and although I appreciate his honesty and admitting to the mistake he made, the blame and fault still lies on him.  I trust my vet to do the best thing and know his profession just like I trust my pediatrician to take care of my children.  This IS NOT a peanut allergy.  NO COLLIE (or sister breeds) CAN HAVE IVERMECTIN.  That's like giving a child an adult medication that is known to cause severe to fatal effects in children but is OK for adults.  It's a known fact even in the vet world.  There was not a CHANCE for a serious side effect, it was a certainty when he used that medication.

By the way, Cooper is making progress everyday.  He has even been heard barking.  The physical therapy is helping those legs and he able to put a little weight on his back legs for a short time.  He is eating small amounts on his own (barely escaped the feeding tube) and is drinking> The road to recovery looks a little long, but there is a very bright light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks
Char

[GoatTalker]

Great news Char. What other drug would you have preferred for Cooper?

[bcrescue]

I too, am very glad to hear that Cooper is making such great progress.

I'm not defending the vet - it's just that if you research the various cures for treating heartworms....it's ALL potentially fatal!
I too, came in here asking a lot of questions about Ivermectin (if you go back and read previous posts, some great links were listed in response), and through this room and outside research i have done, it's NOT all Collies, or herding dogs, dogs with White....and lots of other things that are said. As i pointed out before - German Shepherd's are in the herding class.
It apparently may effect dogs with a certain gene - not all dogs (or Collies) have this gene and even if it is that gene is somewhat unclear.
Bottom line, yes, your vet probably should have either used something else (potentially dangerous) or done a test to see if he could tolerate the Ivermectin. What happened was terribly unfortunate.

Most important is that it is too bad that Cooper got sick and I, as I'm sure others in here, pray for his speedy recovery! I am so pleased to hear that he is improving.
I am done commenting on this particular situation.
Lovin' My Dogs,
LB

[Char8806]

I would have preferred that he put him back on his regular monthly dose of interceptor, like the American Heartworm Society recommends for this stage of heartworm removal.  At the very least, a sensitivity test should have been done knowing that at over 75% of collies do have this gene.  

Believe me, I have spent over 10 hours researching all this in the last week, and what I get out of all that I have read is it is just not wise to use this on collies- and some of their sister breeds.  Even the safe dose of .1 to .2 mg is 1/200 of the dose of what other dogs get at this stage of the treatment.  My vet used the full dose.  Even the manufacturers (in bold print I might add) warn about the use of the ivermectin with collies and some of their sister breeds.  No, not ALL collies have this reaction- just 78%!!!!  46% are sensitive, 32% are super sensitive and only 22% are unaffected.  That's a pretty high percentage (78% if you combine sensitive and super sensitive) and too risky to even try it when there are other options to using Ivermectin.

You have to remember, we are talking about the last stage of the heartworm treatment- the baby heartworms.  The monthly dose does not keep your dog from getting heartworms- all it does is kill the baby ones before they can mature.  

Maybe I am a little sensitive about all this, but I have researched for hours, and with the vets admission that he knew Cooper had been not only given a medication he should not have gotten, but was given a dose 200 times what is safe for his breed is a little unnerving when someone suggests the vet is not responsible.  I apologize for coming off so rough.  And I have to agree that all heartworm treatments have the potential to be fatal.  I just don't think the vet who chose Cooper's did so in his best interest since 78% of Collies do not tolerate Ivermectin with 1/200 of the dose given to other breeds.  I have printed over 25 articles from different websites (several I have quoted here in all the posts I have done) that would agree with me.  Including the manufacturer, Washington State Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Laboratory, the American Heartworm Society, the American Board of Veterinary Toxicology and several of the pet care websites.  After sifting through over 28 pages (that's about 15 sites per page) of search results, I feel I am pretty well educated in this now.  

Here is what I suggest if you want to know where your breed falls on the gene test results from The Veterinary Genetics Laboratory... go to this website   http://http:wwwvgl.ucdavis.edu/research/canine then scroll down under project results and click on updated results.  This website also has links to Washington States research and some others.

Cooper is now fighting fever from a urinary infection as a result of the catheter he has had for over a week, but he is still alert, eating small amounts (fed with a spoon because he still can not raise his head) still getting his therapy and the swelling in his legs is very slowly going down.  They have him on antibiotics to fight the infection.  His lungs still sound good although he still drools quite a bit.  Apparently, he's as passionate about his recovery as I am about talking about it.

Thanks,
Char

[Char8806]

WOOOHOOOOO!!!  Cooper is home.  He started walking yesterday.  He is VERY slow and not very steady, but he's trying so so hard.  We were sent home with a list of instructions and medications, but he looks so happy and I know my other dog is VERY happy to have him home, even if he just lays there and we have to prod him to get up every 2 to 4 hours.  Thanks you all for all your words of wisdom, hopes and prayers throughout this ordeal.  And, to my delight, the 1st vet IS paying the bill.
Thank again,
Char

[GoatTalker]

YEAH for COOPER!! Now we know he is going to make it, whoopie!!!

[Barnes]

WooHoo! Great news! :D

[Jean]

That is wonderful!!   :D